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Ep.24 Score FREE Travel by Turning STR Expenses into Plane Tickets

Short Summary

Discover the untapped world of credit card rewards that transformed real estate investor Brandon Neth's life. Unveiling a twist that goes against the conventional luxury-seeking approach, Brandon's frugal mindset allowed him to take an astounding 40 trips a year. But how did he do it?

Join us as we unravel Brandon's secret to unlocking free money and travel rewards, leaving you wondering how much you've been missing out on.

Our special guest is Brandon Neth

Brandon Neth is a seasoned investor and renovator in the real estate industry. With a passion for travel hacking and maximizing credit card rewards, Brandon has become an expert at leveraging his real estate business to earn free travel. Brandon's extensive knowledge and experience in credit card rewards make him the perfect guest to provide insights and strategies for real estate investors looking to maximize their rewards and improve their credit profiles.

In this episode, you will be able to:

  • Discover how to maximize credit card rewards to get the most out of your real estate investments.

  • Learn the secrets of building a strong credit profile with secured cards, so you can access better financing for your properties.

  • Unlock the power of points and miles to elevate your travel experiences and save money on flights and accommodations.

  • Dive into the world of hotel loyalty and airline programs to enjoy exclusive perks and upgrades whenever you travel.

  • Gain expert insights on setting boundaries for credit card usage, so you can leverage rewards without getting trapped in debt.

Action steps mentioned in this episode are:

  • Find a Facebook group where you can learn from others and ask questions about maximizing credit card rewards and travel hacking.

  • Consider hiring a consultant or taking a course to learn the ins and outs of credit card rewards and how to optimize your spending for free travel.

  • Explore the benefits of using business credit cards for your expenses. Business cards often have different reporting rules and can help you manage your personal credit utilization more effectively.

  • Make it a habit to pay off your credit card balances in full every month.

  • Research credit cards that have partnerships with companies you frequently spend money with.

Maximize Credit Card Rewards Maximizing credit card rewards can significantly enhance benefits for real estate investors, particularly through access to free travel. By tactically leveraging card spending on real estate ventures, investors can amass reward points that could fund multiple international trips yearly.

Build a Strong Credit Profile Building a strong credit profile is essential for both personal and investment-related financial health. Regular, on-time payments and low credit card utilization are key to fostering a positive credit score.

Learn Strategies to Maximize Points and Miles Learning to maximize points and miles earned through credit card spending can lead to substantial rewards, even reaching as far as funding real estate purchases. To take full advantage, investors need to explore further avenues like shopping portals, dining programs, and loyalty schemes.

Link and Resources

Subscribe for free episode bonus materials:

Join the conversation with Tracie on Facebook:

Follow Jacquie on Instagram:

Connect with Brandon on Facebook:

Follow The Neth Lab on Facebook:


00:04 Tracie Fowler Welcome to The STR Insiders Podcast. We share tips for achieving your STR goals, AHA Moments, funny stories, and all the latest gossip of this STR life. Listen in as we keep it real and maybe a little sassy, celebrate successes and own all the mistakes we've made along the way. Whether you're new to real estate investing, new to short term rentals, or a seasoned pro, there's something here for you. Jacquie is an STR property manager who consults with individuals looking to grow their own property management firm. Tracy owns STR consulting and media firms that provide education to investors who want to learn all about STR investing. For more information, please visit

00:54 Tracie Fowler Hi, everyone, and welcome back to The STR Insiders podcast. Today we have Brandon Neth of The Neth Lab with us. And Brandon is a investor and renovator, and I know you through travel hacking initially, but all these different things that you're into single family, multifamily, commercial. I think he might even have an STR or two, maybe used to. We'll see about more of that in a minute. But again, mostly a credit card and award travel expert is how I know Brandon, but really active in the real estate space and how to optimize your real estate spend to equal free travel, which we all love. So let's dive right in. Welcome, Brandon.

01:47 Brandon Neth Great. Thank you for having me.

01:49 Jacquie Mosher Boy, am I excited to have you on. I love free travel.

01:54 Brandon Neth You're welcome. I'm kind of a big deal, so yeah.

02:00 Jacquie Mosjer Yeah, you are! I love it.

02:01 Jacquie Mosher So what has been your most aspirational redemption using points earned through your real estate business to date?

02:11 Brandon Neth That's a little bit of a loaded question for me because I think most people that look into points and miles and they hear Aspirational and they're thinking first class ,Emirates, they want something really fancy. I'm a cheap ass. It doesn't matter how many points I have. I can earn millions of points a month, and I'm seriously going to fly in the back of the plane. So instead of flying a couple of times a year in first class, I'm flying 40 times a year in the back for the same number of points. To answer your question and make it try to sound as fancy as possible. This week, we're leaving to go to India, and this will be our second time we've ever flown in anything but economy. But I guess that's as good as it gets for me.

02:51 Brandon Neth People are going to say it's very off brand, but my wife has had enough. She's tired of being a poor person. She's like, let's fly up front for a while.

02:57 Tracie Fowler Good for you. So Jacquie is brand new to points redemptions. I promised her about a year ago if she learned a little bit about credit card earning that we would go to Spain. So, we go to Spain next week.

03:12 Jacquie Mosher I'm psyched. I've been so anti credit card, and a year ago, I booked a consulting appointment with Tracie. Like, I literally went through her Calendly, booked a consulting call, because I was like, I feel like I could be doing things a little differently. And she maybe set me up on a few basic a good place to start. And I cannot believe know I just booked a business class trip to Spain. I have a first class flight home. I actually bought a flight for a friend, too. And I am using all these points, and I am just like, I'm living my best life right now.

03:48 Brandon Neth Trying to get people into this space is incredibly difficult. So I think you get to the point where you just give up and people have to see the light themselves, but once they see it, they're like, oh, my God, what have I been doing for the last ten years? Spending 50 grand a year on my debit card. And Tracy and I are back here doing one of these. Oh, my God. If you just would have listened to us, you would have had so much free money and so much free travel. So yeah, totally get it.

04:14 Tracie Fowler Yeah. How many times I've said this to people, especially in the real estate space, specifically, whether you're an investor or a manager or a designer, there's so many different aspects of this where you have a ton of organic spend going through your hands that is just printing miles for you if you utilize it, absolutely.

04:36 Brandon Neth And it can be relatively easy. You don't have to get crazy like Tracie and I and get really into the weeds. You can do a couple of cards, maximize those, and still get enough to really take advantage of something you're already doing.

04:47 Jacquie Mosher What held me back was I don't do credit cards. So, let's cover that hesitations with credit cards. We have a friend who says, I don't have great credit. Some people say, is it going to hurt my credit score? Do you know the factors that credit bureaus use to calculate your credit score?

05:05 Brandon Neth First and foremost, let me back up. I want to be very clear. If you're not good with credit cards, you're going to overspend. You're going to spend extra to earn points and miles. It's not for you. If you're going to carry a balance, this isn't for you. Do not do that. You'll end up behind. But rule number two. I generally feel like us real estate investors have the proper mentality to do this, right? We are hustlers. We understand money, we understand leverage. We understand cash flow. We get it. So we're the perfect type of people to be into this space, doing this stuff. Once you kind of get past that hurdle and you understand, okay, we can do this, we run into the questions that you just asked.

05:40 Brandon Neth And the other big one I get a lot that I just want to throw in there is it going to mess up a loan for me? Right? Like, if I'm opening up credit cards, I have inquiries. Is it going to cause problems with me pulling out a DSCR loan or whatever type of loan you're pulling out when you open up a credit card, yes, it's going to get an inquiry on your personal credit the vast majority of the time. Okay. And yes, that can temporarily hurt your score. If you're doing this right, you're doing it long term. This will help your credit long term. I always try to give people this example. You're a bank and you've got me walking in and I say, hey, I want to get a loan from you.

06:15 Brandon Neth It looks at my credit portfolio and I've got a 700 credit score, but I've only handled $10,000 in credit cards and loans and other things in the past. Jacquie, you walk in, same bank, same credit score, but you've got multiple credit cards, multiple lines of credit that are open in good standing with hundreds of thousands of dollars in available credit. Who is the bank more likely going to lend to? Right? You've proven yourself. So, there's baby credit versus big credit. It's not just about credit score. And that kind of goes into what you asked, like, what do the credit bureaus actually care about? What do they look at, what factors? And there's more to your credit score than just the credit score, or I guess, more to your credit profile than just your credit score. So they do look at all these things. All these things come into play. But long story short, the two most important things is on time payments do not have late payments, and the amount of money you're carrying on your cards. So how much of your utilization of your total credit portfolio are you using? Those are the big things. If you can get those under control, you can start leveraging and making a lot of either money or a ton of travel for almost free.

07:21 Tracie Fowler Yeah, utilization is one of my favorites to manipulate because it's really easy. And one of the things that I really like is that business cards don't show up the same way that personal cards do. If you are running a bunch of things through your credit card and you're trying to get a new card and adjust how your utilization appears, even one of the easiest things to do is put it on your business cards and leave your personal cards close to zero and your utilization will be immaculate.

07:53 Brandon Neth You can even go one step further than that. There's options out there with 0% on business cards. So you're essentially talking a 0% loan for twelve months, 15 months, 18 months. And especially as a short term investor, we know how expensive it is to furnish a house that adds up real quick. Well, guess what? You can do that 0% for twelve months, essentially furnish your house for free, get that cash flow coming in and then paying it off. If you do it on a business card like Tracie just said, it doesn't report to your personal credit. You win all the way around because it doesn't hurt your score at all.

08:22 Tracie Fowler You just get points.

08:23 Jacquie Mosher For me, it was a huge mind shift that had to happen, right? Viewing it more so as a resource or as a tool that if used correctly, could largely benefit me. And I think there is a lot of fear in like, oh, people who have credit cards don't manage their wealth well or whatever. But I think just changing that mindset goes a long way.

08:48 Tracie Fowler And anyone listening, I want you to get this. If you don't get anything else from today, if you are going to use credit cards, pay them off in full every single month. Because if you don't, you're paying interest, which means you are buying your points. That's what the credit card company wants. But it is not the goal of today's episode. We're trying to get you free travel, not travel you paid for. So just get in that habit, right?

09:17 Jacquie Mosher The things that you are already spending money on. You don't want to change your spending habits. At least not in my world I haven't. Like, for example, amazon. My company spends I should probably shouldn't mention how much my company spends on Amazon, but 5% back with that Amazon credit card, that's like a lot of money back in my pocket and everything I'm spending. I'm using this Amazon card to purchase things for my clients. That is invoiceable. I'm invoicing my clients. This is free money in my pocket.

09:51 Brandon Neth Good for you. Living the dream. Seriously.

09:56 Jacquie Mosher It's amazing.

09:57 Brandon Neth It's amazing, you guys hiring?

10:03 Jacquie Mosher I love it.

10:05 Tracie Fowler And I think that someone new. The real question is, like, how do they get started? What makes sense for your first card?

10:13 Brandon Neth I really think especially for investors, that their time's worth money. Paying a consultant like Tracie or taking a course or something along those lines is probably worth your time. I generally say talk to somebody in the space because anytime you read an article, anytime you talk to somebody and they just give you a general answer, what credit card should you open first? And they just throw you a credit card. They're not looking out for your best interest. They're not there's so much to this without geeking out there's. All these rules that are put in place, you need to follow and you need to set out a long term path again. Even if you're not opening up a bunch of cards, even if you're opening a few, you need to open up ones that work well together.

10:50 Brandon Neth You can stack rewards and stack partners and kind of all this stuff. So the best way to really get started, find a community. Right? Like Tracie, I know you moderate a Facebook community. I moderate a Facebook community. It's a great place to go and you don't even have to participate. Just watch the questions that are asked. The amount of information you can learn just from other people asking is huge. And then don't be afraid to ask somebody like me or Tracie or somebody else in the space questions because this stuff is always changing too. I should put a caveat on this. Like we can say something that is absolute truth right now and in a week it may not be true. Perfect example tomorrow or tomorrow, Delta Airlines, we hate your guts right now because you just gutted your program.

11:28 Brandon Neth So it's a perfect example of how things can change. And that happened overnight about a week ago. So be part of a community. Ask the questions and don't try to do it all yourself. That's the best advice if you're starting out.

11:40 Tracie Fowler Yeah, I agree. I think you'll learn a lot just by being a fly on the wall in these groups. And by the way, Brandon's group is FBZ elite and the one that I'm in is Travel Miles 101. Although I'm so busy with STR these days, you probably will get more out of Brandon than me in travel hacking. So, let's say that someone is working on improving their credit. Do you have any tips for that type of thing?

12:14 Brandon Neth There's a few ways to do this, right? Again, this is a very case by case basis, right? There's no general answer. Somebody came to me, I'd ask them questions. General advice, pay everything off. Right? We talked about that early. Do not carry debt for month to month, especially in your credit cards. So that's number one. That's just common sense. Don't do it. But that's going to help your score first and foremost. But then you need to stop and look at your profile. Do you have late payments? Are they all actually true? If you have a late payment that's not good or potentially fraud on your account or there's all these different things that can happen, you can actually write to the bureaus and have it corrected. There's people out there that charge for this.

12:51 Brandon Neth Do not pay these credit repair people because I don't want to say it's a scam.

12:54 Tracie Fowler That's all they're doing.

12:56 Brandon Neth It's a scam. It's just not good. So to build your credit, there's multiple ways do these things. There's a couple of best practices you put in place, but there's a couple, let's call them hacks. Not a lot of people know. A lot of people in our space know. People on the outside may not a real quick and easy one to potentially do. This is called Credit Piggybacking, okay? So if you have a friend, a family member, a business partner that can potentially add you to one of their credit cards, as an authorized user, they will add you. You probably won't get the card. Depending on your relationship, you probably don't want the card. And what it does is it gives you essentially their credit history on that card. Not all cards do this.

13:34 Brandon Neth There are certain ones, but essentially adding potentially a huge credit card portfolio or at least available credit to your portfolio with all these years of on time payments that can jump your credit right away, there's things like that. If you don't have that option, start with like a secured card. I know that's not sexy. I know it's not awesome, but I've helped people go from like low five hundred s to mid 700s within a couple of years. Well, after a couple of years, they have strong credit that can be done in a couple of months, but have good, strong credit in a couple of years. And a lot of times they start with a secure card. And that's just part of the pay to a program.

14:10 Brandon Neth I know that's not what everybody wants to hear, but if you got to the point where you have bad credit, you have to earn your way back. It can be done, and you can be exactly where we are. Literally. You could do this in a year. You could do it in a year. If you do everything right.

14:23 Tracie Fowler What else can someone do to earn points that are not reliant on credit cards?

14:31 Brandon Neth Okay, so you want to earn points, miles. Don't want to do this. There's a couple of really simple, basic things. Sleep at a hotel, be part of their program. Actual nights in a hotel will earn you hotel points. Actual, we call it butt in the seat. If your butt's in the seat of an airplane and you're flying, you're part of their frequent flyer program. You're earning miles. So those are the basic simple ones. I think most people probably have a basic understanding, but there's other really neat, interesting options out there. Most airlines and most hotel programs have shopping portals. Okay? These are very simple things. So a shopping portal, if you don't know what that is, rack butin top cash back. These are websites that are essentially you click through them before you go to Lowe's.

15:12 Brandon Neth Lowe's is 2% right now on rackutin you click through this website to Lowe's, you shop like you normally do, and you get 2% of your order back. When I say of your order back, you get 2% of your total spend back in rewards. And usually it comes back as cash back, and most people are comfortable with that. But if you're wanting points and miles, there is a way. If you have American Express cards, you can earn membership reward points. So you can earn 2% cash back to that portal, which is really unique. I think it's the only one that actually does that. Each company has a portal or dining or some sort of option that when you go out and spend money pretty much like you typically do, you go to these places, you have your frequent fire or your hotel program attached.

15:56 Brandon Neth You go out to restaurants. You can earn points. So there's all these different ways to actually do this without being reliant on credit card points a miles. The other thing is that, I don't know if everybody talks about there are communities out there that sell points a miles. You can actually go out and buy them as well. And a lot of times you can buy enough points a miles to redeem for one of these aspirational expensive flights for significantly less than you'd spend cash out of pocket. So that's an option that not a lot of people talk about, but it is quite big in the advanced points and miles world. People buy and sell and trade points a lot, so that's always an option, too.

16:30 Tracie Fowler You also touched on something about dining, and I just want to call that out a little bit more. So shopping portals are awesome. They're very easy to do from your computer or some of them you can have in your phone built into your typical shopping process. But dining programs, I think I'm on Marriott's because I find Marriott harder to earn for. So it's one of the ones that I like to set up little passive bumps for. But there are several united they're different programs where you can attach it and I'm pretty sure to your debit card. Maybe not just your credit card. I think it's just like anything that processes when you go out to eat, you're correct. So even if you don't have a single credit card, you could still sign up for the dining program of your preference. And then anytime you eat out at restaurants in their program all over the world, it just automatically gives you bonus points. So I just randomly get emails from Marriott or American Airlines or whoever I have activated at that time as another way to earn points without having an actual credit card.

17:28 Brandon Neth I can see Jackie's eyes lighting up right now.

17:31 Jacquie Mosher It's like, oh, hey, this is my next way to level up.

17:34 Tracie Fowler We haven't talked about this previously. And she eats out more than anybody I know.

17:40 Jacquie Mosher It's true. I just got a credit card specifically for restaurant points because it triples them.

17:47 Brandon Neth Can I guess which card it is? Yeah.

17:51 Jacquie Mosher Let's play this game!

17:53 Brandon Neth There's too many.

17:54 Tracie Fowler Come on. You know.

17:55 Jacquie Mosher You know.

17:55 Brandon Neth Yeah, it's okay. I'll put you on.

17:57 Jacquie Mosher I feel like you could guess it.

17:59 Brandon Neth Well, let me back up and tell you what I'm using for restaurants, then you tell me if you think I'm right. I'm actually in love with the Built card for restaurants. I know American Express is cool. Chase is cool. I'm banned from Chase, unfortunately, so I can't get Chase anyway, but I'm using my Built card.

18:16 Jacquie Mosher Wait, how did you get banned from Chase?

18:20 Brandon Neth Can this podcast go for 3 hours? Because I could give you the whole story. Tracie mentioned earlier that I create points out of nothing. I created points out of nothing in ways that they're legal, but Chase doesn't like it. So Chase had enough and said bye because I was no longer a profitable customer.

18:44 Jacquie Mosher I am so impressed.

18:46 Tracie Fowler So think of it like counting cards at a casino. You can count cards. It's legal, but they're going to walk you to the exit.

18:57 Brandon Neth Well, I'm banned by Chase, US bank, Citi, Brex, PayPal, Dosh, all these different programs that are out there that are credit card and non-credit card related because I leverage and maximize and they just have enough and get rid of.

19:12 Tracie Fowler Well, and to be clear, we're not teaching you any of those strategies today.

19:19 Brandon Neth What ended up being the straw that broke the camel's back with Chase? For me, I earned enough points in about a three month span that I bought my first house 100% off a credit card spend. So I was earning points, cashing them out, and I bought my first property, 100% off of a credit card play.

19:36 Jacquie Mosher Well, I'm going to get banned next then, because that's great.

19:41 Tracie Fowler Now we're getting to the real stuff that people want to hear.

19:45 Brandon Neth It is possible, but it takes a little work.

19:47 Tracie Fowler But either way, you're being modest. A little work.

19:53 Jacquie Mosher Some of us beginners feel a little overwhelmed here, so we have to simplify it to just a couple of things. If were to just start with just a couple of things, what would those things be?

20:02 Brandon Neth The most important thing, I think, is first and foremost, to set your rules and your limits. Figure out what's going to work for you. Like earlier, we said, never carry a balance, never pay extra for points. Figure out what's going to work for your family and your mindset, right? Everybody's a little bit different. However you have to do that, figure it out. Just make it work. It's really important. So number one is know your limits. Number two is have a long term plan. I think number two and a half is, like I said earlier, find a community. Find somebody like Tracie or a course or something that you can sit down and really digest this. Don't try to go at this on your own because it's overwhelming. Jacquie, you just said it like there's a lot. So have a plan. Understand. Like, if you go at credit cards on your own and you get this card and this one and this one, and there's no path to it, it's going to cost you money long term. It really is. So the way to learn and understand, I know I keep harping on this, but this is how I learned, is find a community, find people that will teach you. And then step number three, I would say two and a half, three, wherever we're at in this is go at your pace, go at what works for you. You're going to get in these communities and you're going to see people literally opening up cards two times a month. I open two a month. My wife opens two a month. And a lot of people get like that. People like their eyes get so big and it gets overwhelming.

21:20 Brandon Neth Go slow. Do what works for you. And the last one that I think is probably most important is from day one, start tracking everything. Sit down, create an Excel Sheet, a Google sheet, whatever it is. Say what car it is, when you opened it, what your annual fee is, how much you need to spend on it to get your sign up bonus, and start tracking. Because I promise you, if you ever go deep into this, it's going to be crucial for you to scale in this. Just like real estate, you've got to have your tools in place before you scale, so start there. That'll give you a really good foundation to get started. Start asking those questions, and don't be afraid to jump in from a fellow beginner.

22:01 Jacquie Mosher My advice would be to look at where you're currently spending the most money and maybe research programs or credit cards around that might help you choose a program or a credit card that you can start earning points on.

22:16 Tracie Fowler I agree with that as part of what I recommend for new people. The other thing I say is, in addition to what Brandon recommended is having a travel goal is really helpful. I knew Jacquie wanted to go to Spain. I know which programs have the best rates for business class in Spain, so it's reverse engineering in a way. And as much as I don't do this anymore, I will do it for my podcast listeners. If you actually get into this and you want to ping me, I will answer a couple of questions to get you moving in the right direction.

22:53 Jacquie Mosher Brandon, I'm dying to know something. How many credit cards do you have?

22:57 Brandon Neth So, I currently actively have 43 credit cards open. My wife has 39 open.

23:04 Tracie Fowler I told you it was going to be close to 100.

23:07 Brandon Neth And I say open because there's been significantly more and there's a strategy to opening and closing and downgrading and all these other things that come to it.

23:16 Jacquie Mosher Now I'm going to ask a question I know all our listeners are dying for me to ask right now.

23:21 Brandon Neth I'm married.

23:22 Jacquie Mosher What is the best?

23:25 Brandon Neth If that's what.

23:26 Tracie Fowler You were going to ask?

23:27 Brandon Neth Yeah. I'm not single.

23:31 Tracie Fowler Oh, man.

23:33 Jacquie Mosher So what do you feel is the best earning opportunity in real estate? Renovation, rehab, back to original.

23:43 Brandon Neth Like, I'm primarily a buy and hold investor. I actually have two short term rentals. I got commercial single, family multifamily. All that for me is huge, is most of the places I buy are X Crack Houses or X Meth labs. That's why my company's name is the Neth Lab because we take them from Meth to Neth. So we have massive renovation budgets on all these places and good, bad, and different I think it creates a lot of organic spend opportunities. So for buy and hold, our opportunities are obviously buying materials. When you were doing our initial innovations, that's where the spend is. For the short term community, it's definitely when you're buying furniture.

24:23 Brandon Neth I've only done two short term rentals, but I feel like every time I do it, I'm like, you got to buy a couch and a TV and it's like, oh, and art and this and a keurig, and there's all these different things that you don't think about. There's just so much spend opportunity there. So it depends on the type of investor you are. But I would say the general advice is whatever you're spending money on now, understand that can all be put on a credit card instead of your debit card. Earning points and miles. And if you're doing it right, you should come out way ahead.

24:51 Tracie Fowler Are we allowed to know how many points you earned last year? Roughly?

24:57 Brandon Neth Organically or total?

24:59 Jacquie Mosher Total.

25:00 Brandon Neth Between my wife and I, personal business, organic and everything altogether, probably close to 110,000,000.

25:10 Jacquie Mosher Oh, my goodness. Wow. I feel like I need to bow.

25:17 Tracie Fowler And he's flying in Economy.

25:21 Brandon Neth To each their own.

25:24 Jacquie Mosher Where can our listeners find more information or connect with you?

25:29 Brandon Neth I'm old, so my primary social media is Facebook. I do have an Instagram, but on Facebook. My name is Brandon Neth. You can just look me up and add me as a friend if you want. My real estate page is the Neth Lab. Neth with an N, not an M. The group that Tracie and I mentioned earlier, I help moderate FBZ Elite Travel and Points. It's a points and miles community. It's about 45,000 people in there. Really friendly, beginner friendly, which is really important, if not all of them are.

25:55 Tracie Fowler We'll have all of his social links on the website, too. So if you aren't clear on what we're saying here in the recording, you can always go to the website and you'll find the links to everything there. Brandon, this has been so much fun. I mean, I knew when we started talking that this was going to be a fun episode for us, that I think our listeners are going to get a lot of benefits. So thank you so much for coming on the show today.

26:19 Brandon Neth Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.


Jacquie Mosher

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